Product Discussion

Finale's generic CSV file format is intended to cover a broad range of firing systems. Some firing systems use modules and cues. The CSV format works for them. Other firing systems have multiple slats per module, with the slats containing the cues. The CSV format works for them too. Other firing systems use the same structures but describe them in different language. One uses the terminology master/terminal/cue to mean the same thing as module/slat/cue. The words cue and pin appear to be used interchangeably in firing system discussions. Also, the word slave appears to be the same as slat from an addressing perspective. It may require some minor editing in Microsoft Excel to adapt the generic CSV file format to some firing systems. For example, if the firing system uses numbers for slat/terminal names instead of letters, converting the letters in the CSV file to numbers is a simple matter.

See if you can add in Fireone / Firelite firing system.

We've had a few users request fireone and offer some help, so I think it is likely we will support fireone soon. I don't expect the fireone exporter to make the Jan 15 release, but probably not too long after. Any volunteers willing to test a fireone exporter?

Yes we are happy to do some sample testing for you on our firelite / fireone systems.
Awaiting your reply.

Nick Papamichael

It would be great if we could download existing (and possibly future) shows from Pyromate SmartShow/NiteTime into FINALE. Personally I am finding FINALE is getting very congested (and sometimes slow to respond) in high intensity areas such as finales. A pop-up or side window showing cue content might help but sometimes I would like to script with SmartShow because it probably will be easier in these situations and the line-by-line viewing is already there. This would only be effective if we had the opportunity to create our own databases or FINALE had a "best match" scenario for pairing descriptions of effects with those requested in the script.

Nick, thank you, we will follow up with you. Our first step is to revise the exporters for the above list, and then we will add Fireone, and get it tested and validated.

David, we plan to add the tabular playback view to Finale. Our objective is to make Finale meet all your needs. It would be super helpful if you could post a new thread in the Product Discussion area "Improvements needed to replace SmartShow" that has a list of the specific improvements Finale would need in order for you not to feel bound to SmartShow any longer. For example, is the tabular display enough? Would you need to be able to edit in the tabular display or just view? Would the performance need to be improved to make editing of congested sections easier? Are the purple timeline blips too imprecise compared to the traditional method of markers with lists of effects attached? Etc. Ideally make the list an ordered list, from most important to least.

Maybe we should be thinking about a "Super-Pro" version with all the bells and whistles the professional display people need. A couple of things come to mind:
1) We can only access FINALE via internet connection. Often when we get on site something has to be changed e.g specific product not arrived, certain mortars unavailable etc. etc., and more often than not there is no internet access. Currently the option to make last minute changes doesn't exist. Maybe a "Super-Pro" version, which enables a download to hard drive of everything needed to create a show, is required.
2) I personally prefer to lay down the cues first (in SmartShow it is done by hitting the spacebar) before entering the fine details of each cue. The "Super-Pro" version could have this facility which would make scripting much quicker and easier.

I guess I was typing my post as you were sending yours. OK will do.

David,

Your comments about your preference to laydown cues first by hitting the spacebar is dead on...I and Korbylo and others have requested this feature as well as many other UI enhancements to the waveform mechanics(I know your listening Will and Chris :) ). Continue to read many of the posts in the Product Discussion section, you will see a lot of what your are refering to being hashed out. It is great to have another "Great" mind on hear, echoing and suggesting enhancements. These Finale boys are incredibly nimble and are implementing a LONG list of junk this community has thrown at them, all at an incredible pace... To see this product where it is today, and where it was just two months ago is incredible.

Keep up the usablility suggestions!
Cheers!

Will, I think this is the thread you wanted me to reply to...I'd like to see finale work with FireOne. Also, many systems use timecode. So if the software could export a timecode soundtrack, that would be useful. With another firing system, I've had timecode on the left channel, and the actual music on the right channel. The music went to the sound guy, and the timecode went to my system. My system read the timecode and fired in sync.

You don't necessarily need FINALE to have the timecode. You could place timecode on one side of the music CD, with mixed stereo music on the other. Just use the same music in FINALE as you do for the CD.

NorthTexas, let's separate what I think are two questions, (1) supporting FireOne, and (2) exporting a timecode channel on the audio file. Regarding (1), we are working on it; we haven't promised it for the Jan 15 release, but it is conceivable we will have FireOne exporters in January. Regarding (2) can you tell me more how the timecode interfaced with your system, and what system it was? We have had a similar sounding request for an left channel containing audio cues for manual firing ("Cue 31...beep...beep...beep...beeeeeeeep...Cue 32... etc.") but so far all of the electronic firing systems that we've had requests for have been sequenced by a script file (often a CVS file), which they load in, rather than an audio track.

There are many others out there that are more experienced with timecode than I am but let me give it a shot...The system I used it on was Firelinx. After you design a show in your software you need to put it on a firing system. Once you get out to shoot the show, you need to sync your autofire show system to the music being played at the event. This is often done with timecode. Timecode isn't for listening to, it's for the system to get time. That way you can make sure that your system is in exactly the same place that the music is in. The other option is to do a 3,2,1 countdown and you press "start" on the system while the sound guy presses "play" on the CD player. This may be an issue for the system manufacturers to work out, but with FireOne software, it's a separate program they offer. Again, there are others with more knowledge on the subject.

I think we have to remember that at the moment FINALE is a program for scripting ie programming, displays. It is NOT yet the program for controlling the firing or for providing the time code for pyromusicals. Each system has its own program/hardware for that.
To the best of my knowledge, most computerized firing systems for synchronized musical displays rely on some form of external time code - as an input either wirelessly, or wired directly into the firing system from the sound source which might be a sound booth, the radio station, or, if you are controlling the action, from your own computer. In any of the above it is only necessary to place the timecode on one side of the music CD, with mixed stereo music on the other thereby ensuring the music is always in sync.
Some systems have built-in timecode which can act independently with a pre-programmed script (but for a musical it has to be a "three, two, one press start method of synchronizing with music), or take over in the event that timecode from the main supplier is lost.
If you are looking for a "beep", "beep", "beep" to tell you when to manually fire the cues I believe that it has to be as an "add on" feature once FINALE is a fully-operational scripting program.

Good points, David. I was getting a bit ahead of myself with the timecode thing. When I thought about it later, I realize it is more of an individual system decision to support timecode than the software scripting program.

And then there is the Advanced Technique Fireworks (ATF) firing system hardware and software that plays the fireworks AND fires the display off of the same hard drive.

Music is then supplied to the sound people out of the earphone jack. Now you can do about any situation and the fireworks display person is in full control, the way it should be.

This can and usually is done with;
Cable to sound person.
Radio station with a mobile link to home station.
Low power FM transmitter broadcasting to an off channel to local sound and station
Endless ways to acompolish this....

Timecode is yet another layer of 'could screw up' that simply gets in the way for many.
Timecode can be lost for many reasons and then the show stops.

Many of the situations associated with time code problems get blamed on the fireworks people when it is an outsider that makes a mistake like timecode dropping for whatever reason and the show PC stops becasue there is no time code. I personally have seen this too many times in huge shows.

Timecode is not a big issue these days.Systems like Fireone & Pyrodig. do not stop if they lose the timecode. Most big pyromusicals are started by the timecode then syncronized, then if the timecode drops out for whatever reason the show goes on. The timecode basicly syncs the script with the music & is generally coded on the left or right track. Timecode could be another addon if you like after the core programming is done.
Sorry timecode is part of the music ..... not part of the script.

bar891 and others,

But, wouldn't incorporation of time code into the FINALE software require that FINALE then be customizable to each and every firing system out there in additon to the script that FINALE will write for a specific firing system?

I can see this as a possible 'can of worms' for the FINALE folks as when the firing system manufacturer changes 'anythnig' within thier program for upgrade or new features that effect the time code part, then FINALE folks would have to revisit the compatiblility of thier software. Then FINALE would be making another big commitment to support others features that might become issues.

Not stating here that FINALE folks not consider the time code issue, just pointing out the direction they might be in for with such a commitment.

Also, since time code is part of the music and specific to the firing software it seems that it should be addressed by the firing system people, and it might be considered proprietary to such a manufacturer? This direction would seem to overtake some of the firing system manufacturers responsiblities of firing software support. Example, you would not expect FINALE to fire your display.

Furthermore, don't firing system manufacturers that require time code already have software that support this?

Agree with you 100% Mike.
There are many more features to overcome before timecode. I was just throwing my two cents worth. But on one note, timecode has a standard, there are a couple of different timecodes but all are to a universal standard. As i only work with Fireone & Pyrodig i can use either or timecode on each program (if that makes any sense).
On another note, maybe we could have an area where users can share their creations with other uses if they choose. I realize that there are two areas of Finale... Real & Fantasy ..The real people may not be interested in this unless someone makes an effect that resembles the real product or they could use it another way to get product made to there specs.The fantasy people are so creative that they will create more effects than flash gordon. Just throwing it open for disscucion.

Well put bar891. Your "two areas of Finale... Real & Fantasy" is correct. I wonder if Will and gang have thought of it this way?

Respectfully submitted to all, especially the fantasy folks; Fantasy is fun but the real people hardly have time for the fun fantasy stuff as the real does as the old saying; 'work finds the ability to fill the time available'.

Mike and bar, you are thinking perfectly one step ahead. Your point about browsing fireworks and sifting through real if you want fantasy or fantasy if you want real is going to become an important point imminently, as soon as people can browse other public fireworks made by other people and copy those fireworks into their own personal inventory. Expect a related pre-release announcement from Chris tonight or tomorrow, and then perhaps start a new thread on this subject specifically.

Hey guys. I just noticed something strange after exporting to SmartShow. The pre-fire time for each calibre just added 0.1 sec on every line.

My 4" is 3.8 and is showing 3.9; my 5" is 4.2 and is showing 4.3; and 6" is 5.0 but showing 5.1.

Any ideas?

If I want to place multiple shells of the same calibre and effect in the same module for launch at the same time, FINALE only allows me to do it using one igniter per shell. There are many times that I just want to match them together - any ideas?

A few other points:
1) Smartshow gives me a running cost but currently FINALE arbitrarily assigns a cost of $1.00 per item. Are there plans to incorporate a unit cost/running cost feature?
2) It also would be nice to have a running total of shells per size without going into the .HBS file.
3) Currently export to Smartshow requires a .wav file. There are obvious "work-arounds" (eg a low volume wave file) but can't simply have the option of music/no music? Maybe there are technical reasons why this can't happen - just asking.

If the shells are at the same position and same time, then you can double click the launch position and set the e-matches/pin to a higher number. In that case the firing algorithm will look for effects at the same launch position and exact same time and assign them to the same pin. In the near future we will also let you assign modules/pins manually on a per shell basis to override the automatic assignment.

Per effect costs and running cost tabulation is definitely something we are thinking about for the future. We've had some discussions as well about tracing quantities of effects used in shows back to a master inventory sheet (for example see this post http://www.finalefireworks.com/node/1008233)

The .wav file is required by the SmartShow software if I remember correctly. You don't need to save it every time - if you save over the existing CSV file you can skip saving the .wav file through a dialog that pops up.

Chris

Sorry Chris, I guess I didn't explain fully. If I understand you correctly you are saying it's possible to increase the number of e-matches/pin. That much I understand, but that's not what I want to achieve.
As an example, if I have 3 x 3" shells launched at the same time from the same position I would like to match them together and ignite using one e-match. Currently FINALE assigns one e-match per shell.

By the way, any comments on my post re: the random 0.1 sec addition to the pre-fire time that is happening when I export to Smartshow?

I believe I am right in assuming that FINALE currently requires the user to add sufficient modules to each position before export to Smartshow. It would be great if FINALE could automatically determine the number of modules required at each position OR allow export without defining the number of modules because Smartshow/NiteTime does this.

David, you could always 'match' the 3 shells together in Finale and make them a Cake. That way only 1 match will be shown in the software, but the desired 3 shells would be fired simultaneously.

That'll work - thanks

If I understand this correctly, isn't what your doing is making a 'chain of shells' with just 1 e-match?

Hey Mike:

Not really - it's a group of three shells linked together, and fired simultaneously with no delays between, all fired from one e-match.

We call that a "no Delay Chain" down south... :)

David, do you not call it a chain because there is no delay between the Quickmatched shells?

Cheers,

I've never heard that term before but it's certainly an accurate description.

Officially, according to the "Fireworks Manual" issued by Naturan Resources Canada, Explosives Regulatory Division, "Chain fusing" is "a series of two or more aerial shells fused together to fire in sequence from a single ignition". So I guess the key words here are "in sequence" which suggests a delay between launches therefore your assumption is correct.

David, following up on your comment about wanting a chain (using nepyro's terminology) of multiple shells on a single pin with a single ematch, I am trying to understand the precise difference between what you want and Chris' suggestion of setting the e-match limit per pin for the module. It sounds to me like the problems with Chris' suggestion are: (1) you would want the loading report to indicate how the three shells assigned to the pin are ignited; currently the loading report just lists the shells for each pin so there is no difference on the report between ematch or quickmatch, so I'm assuming you want this ignition spelled out explicitly, and (2) it sounds like the workaround of using the ematches-per-pin setting to achieve the condition that three shells will be combined per pin is inadequate because that setting is a per-module setting applied to all pins, as opposed to a condition that would apply just to the pin to which the chain of three shells is assigned. Is that correct?

David, the suggestion to make a cake out of the three shells is a good solution, I believe. We are going to add the ability to make chains, but this chain feature will be nearly identical to the make cake feature. Both the cake and chain are identical with respect to requiring a single ignition. The only difference is that the chain will require multiple mortars whereas the cake requires none. But since we don't yet have equipment management in Finale for managing mortars, the suggestion of making your three shells into a cake is for now absolutely equivalent to making a chain.

We have taken note of the prefire time appearing off by 0.1s. I suspect that is just a rounding error in the printing, but I'll check into it as soon as we finish the feature that let's you manually assign pins in addition to or as opposed to using the automatic pin assignment algorithm.

Regarding the question about requiring the user to add sufficient modules versus having Finale automatically add modules as required, I would like to hear other comments on this subject. I know SmartShow/Nighthawk does this, but I'm suspecting that people wouldn't use the feature in Finale once we add an information panel for each launch position that shows you while you are making the show what equipment you have at each launch position and what the current pin assignments are and lets you manually edit those assignment if you want. It seems to me that once you can readily see how the equipment at each launch position is being utilized, then you would prefer to lay it out yourself rather than have it automatically added. Plus there's the issue that you'd have to at least tell the algorithm what kind of modules to add automatically, and as long as you are doing that why not lay them out explicitly. I'm not the expert though, so I don't know. Other thoughts on this question anybody?

The Fireone system uses Cuemaker. The number of modules are assigned automaticlly, is open to change if you select to either 1. Fill all modules 2. group same size shells together 3. group same effects together. This works well in getting everything together then you have the power to manually move cues around to different modules (maybe if you have 3" water shells at the front of the barge and 3"aerial shells at the rear) you could move the water shells to a forward module. Does that make sense?

bar891 is correct as far as FireOne is concerned and SmartShow/NightTime are similar.
My concern about FINALE not automatically creating the right number of modules is that we humans aren't as smart as computers and sometimes we forget things - like adding another module - and we all know this could happen in high-pressure situations such as having to make last minute changes on site.

Regarding multiple shells being launched at the same time, in post #25 of this Forum, Chris states "... In that case the firing algorithm will look for effects at the same launch position and exact same time and assign them to the same pin". This is fine if they are individually e-matched but you could easily end up having different calibres on the same pin - not something I want to have.
On the other hand, taking Chris' statement one step further, if this is the case why not get FINALE to automatically group identical (size and effect) shells at the same time and fire from one e-match, adding the total to the "Qty" column which would ensure the correct number of mortars.
Maybe quickmatching multiples together with no delay and firing from one e-match is just our way of doing it - does anybody else do this?

All Pyros: This is a great discussion...and I think we would all do it the same way given the same equipment and resources, and launch specifics.

I think Will is correct with his suggestion on the Auto Equipment requirement...Let me try to help everyone visulalize what I think would would work.

Imagine: Finale is made "Equipment Aware" - Finale lets you define your equipment preferences and inventory. While Scripting, you drop three 4" Gold Willows to the skyfield, arrange them in a "\|/" pattern, THEN you could click and DRAG a graphical selection box around the three shells and select them(or just use the SHIFT-CLICK on each one), now you right click on them and select a FUSING METHOD(QM-1ematch No delay chain, or Timed chain or 3ematch direct fire).... you then drag this group of shells to a Launch Position(if you had not already done so)....Now the Equipment Aware Finale would behave in two ways...depending on how the launch position was defined: IF, YOU have manually placed equipment and assigned it to the LAUNCH position prior to you dragging any effect into it, It would prompt you on the screen at the moment you drop something in it, with the ability to drag that effect or group of effects, down to the module, slat, que/pin that you want it to go too, AND/OR just let you drop it and forget it. BUT, since you configured the 3 shells with a Fusing method, Finale's Auto Que assignment would know exactly how many pins/ques to assign to this group. Also, with this type of behavior, if you have pre-chosen your equipment for the lauch position, the moment you have dragged more effects than you have physical ques, Finale would ALSO suggest you add another module, if you do not drag it to an existing pin with product allready on it.....AND IF YOU DID THAT, Finale would ask you again, HOW DO YOU WANT THAT FIRED? ( Parallel ematch?, Series Ematch?, QM chain, Delay Device? etc.)

So in the case where you want to not be burdened with module slat, que/pin assignments, then do not configure your launch posistions with any equipment, and as long as you defne a fusing method(this feature does not yet exist...I am suggesting it) to the effect or group of effects before you drop it into a launch position, then FINALE's auto assignment process could feasibly do everyting it needed to auto assign modules to launch postions and have a good chance of getting it right in the end.

There...two ways to skin the pyro cat...

Time for coffee... or tea for you UK'ers!

Cheers,
Mikey

Also: This gets into some behavioral preferences...so it would be great if FINALE allowed us to define these...

Like: Default behavior for draging multiple grouped effects to a launch position?
Choices: 1 ematch w/QM = ONE QUE/PIN(No Delay Chain)
3 ematch direct fused = 3 ques/pins
1 ematch w delay timers

Works for me. Thanks.

Tea - now there's a sensible suggestion!

That set-up could also help with the inventory - if Finale shows how many e-matches you need, which pyro-clocks/delay fuse, etc then that's another layer of useful information that could affect how a display is designed/fired, and what you pack for the shoot-site. If you run out of delay fuse you'll need separate cues and more e-matches. If Finale knows this then this can be flagged up and adjustments made.

could finale have export to firebywire option.

iv tried to get firebywire to work with there csv converter and after speaking to the owner of firebywire, there would need to be a couple of alterations / addons to the csv file for it to work. and there only small ones.

Chris or or will could i email you a example of a csv file for it to work so you can see if its possible for the future.

i know of quite a few people interested in finale if you can make it compatible with firebywire.

many thanks
pyropdc

pyropdc - sure, happy to add firebywire. Send an example csv file to service@finalefireworks.com. We can probably add this pretty quickly.

many thanks will iv sent a example of the file and basic information of the firebywire setup.

many thanks
pyropdc

I can not see my show on the web

Hi Will

I am working on a unit and it is called QUICKFIRE can you add this

Khaled, please send an email to service@finalefireworks.com and we'll resolve the problem with the show you cannot see. Regarding your firing system, please send an email to service@finalefireworks.com with an explanation of the text format of the script that your firing system needs, and we'll integrate it.

Is there a feature that will allow me to upload a firing script from another firing system,,, Ex,, I am a shooter and I get a script from a company who programs in Fireone,, But I have a smartfire system,,, can you make it so I can upload the fireone script and then convert it with Finale to smartfire,, and then...export to smartfire with wave music file and everything synced up,,,

I also work with shooters that use the ATF digital firing system,,,,, It would be nice if we could upload any script from any of the supported firing systems and have finale convert it for us..